Cutting Out

[Zaz]

Hi all, first post - be gentle !

 

I have had a read through the boards as best i can for some hints but cant find a suitable answer so am making a post.

 

 

I have a 1998 2.0 litre petrol GLX that has a pretty useless handbook (where the fuse guide doesnt seem to relate to whats actually there)

 

 

More often than not the car starts first time from a cold start, but it suffers from a little bit of intermittent hunting on tickover, idling at just over 1000rpm when settled

 

When out driving it seems to run fine, no misfires and as far as i can tell its running on all cylinders (sounds right, not sure how to tell properly though)

After a few minutes it cuts out completely, losing all power to PAS and ABS making it difficult to steer or brake properly, an obvious concern !

Usual routine is hazards on, ignition off, outt of gear, restart straight away and off we go but this is obviously not ideal if out and about for any length of time.

 

I have visually checked all the main fuses in dashboard, not checked the smaller non-critical system fuses (lights etc, vertical column of smaller fuses) or the engine bay fuse box.

 

I have checked the HT leads and as best as i can tell they are seated correctly and undamaged, though a couple of retaining clips where the leads meet the starter coils have snapped off, that doesnt seem to affect the fit though.

 

I have visually checked the MAF sensor for gunge - clean as a whistle, the air filter seems good and apart from some debris in the filter housing that was clean aswell. One issue there though is the secondary smaller filter located in the housing on the right hand side that seems to filter out crap from a breather hose that runs from the top of the engine. This hose seems a little loose where it meets the engine but im not sure thats entirely important as its open ended anyway.

 

Given the car seems to start pretty well when asked, im inclined to think the ignition system is OK but hard to tell.

 

I am leaning towards a fuelling issue, but the fuel filter was changed 15k miles ago so doubt its that. Possibly a relay 30 issue ? having trouble finding one anywhere though, no garage near me has one.

 

No engine lights are on which i am advised will be if there are error codes on the ECU

 

Not sure what to do next - any advice greatly appreciated as we now need the car because teh 2nd car insurance has expired !

 

Thanks in advance :lol:

 

zaz

[Zaz]

Any ideas chaps please ?

[Amarok]

Zaz,

welcome...

After reading your post (lots of detail thank you) this is my take on what is happening.

 

On these engines the tick-over/idle is controlled by the ECU it takes readings from the various sensors and adjusts the idle control valve accordingly to keep the idle at or around 750rpm. The idle control valve does this by opening or closing a extra air bleed by the throttle housing. the problem is (and I had this on Vauxhalls as well) is the location is downstream from the cam cover breather so on high mileage engines there is a gradual oily build up so the idle control valve gets blocked. This gets really annoying on automatic vehicles and results in the standard posting MY CAR STALLS AT ROUNDABOUTS ! my question to this post is 'You don't drive a Automatic do you' ;). Manual drivers can blip the throttle and probably don't realize a problem is there !

 

My first port of call for you Zaz is give the throttle housing and Idle control valve a good clean with carb cleaner , also loose pipes anywhere near the throttle housing is a defo No No any air leaks in this area and it all goes to pot.

 

Kind regards

Edited October 24, 2011 by Amarok

[seatkid]

As Amarok says, clean the ICV (idle control valve) - it starts sticking when gummed up leading to stalling problems typically when slowing to a halt - known problem.

[Zaz]

Thanks for the help guys, ill get on it this week. Would that also account for it cutting out momentarily while at motorway speeds though ? We had that happen 2/3 times on a run back from the midlands last week, bit unnerving at 70mph with 2 kids in the car !

[toby1966]

As Amarok says, clean the ICV (idle control valve) - it starts sticking when gummed up leading to stalling problems typically when slowing to a halt - known problem.

Where is said valve please?

[Zaz]

As Amarok says, clean the ICV (idle control valve) - it starts sticking when gummed up leading to stalling problems typically when slowing to a halt - known problem.

Where is said valve please?

 

On my galaxy i think its at teh back and slightly to the left, behind the air filter housing and multipoint rail that sits above the spark plugs - bit of a fiddly job to get to without getting hair off, but sounds like it will be worth the effort ;)

[seatkid]

Thanks for the help guys, ill get on it this week. Would that also account for it cutting out momentarily while at motorway speeds though ? We had that happen 2/3 times on a run back from the midlands last week, bit unnerving at 70mph with 2 kids in the car !

No, thats more likely to be the infamous relay 30 problem (fuel pump relay)

[Zaz]

Was great fun this morning, wouldnt start for ages, started, ran for 30 seconds and cut out - wouldnt start for love nor money on demand, finally started after 20 mins and with some 'persuasion' of the throttle, got me to the train station 2 miles away.

 

Would seem i have both issues !

 

My problem now is finding where to buy the relay 30 as my local garages dont stock it and also getting (possibly) a replacement ICV at reasonable cost but i think ebay may come to the rescue there.

[Amarok]

Before you get replacements check the relay socket to make sure you have a good connection, also give the valve a really good clean it is quite a simple device and should give good service. worth a try before you lay out your hard earned cash ^_^

[Zaz]

Right, busy morning, got meself some carb cleaner and had a right good go over the ICV, it wasnt all that bad really but now it sparkles.

 

Took the dash apart and visually checked every fuse - all OK, all relays seated nicely and no damaged/loose cables in the whole fuse assembly as far as i can see.

 

Removed and reseated the HT leads one by one, i dont have a socket for the spark plugs yet though, that will have to be checked later. Cant see any issue with the leads

 

Checked every electrical connection i could see and get my hands on, checked the fuses in the angine bay (only two in box by the battery that i could find)

 

I cant physically get to the starter motor assembly, i dont have the hardware to raise the car or get underneath and cant reach it from above, so i cant check that myself.

 

Problem now is that i cant get the damn thing started ! The engine turns over but its not firing so im a bit stuck really, not sure what else i can check that i can get to.

 

Ive stuck the battery on charge as it was getting a little tired of repeated starting attempts.

 

One thing i have noted is after attempting a start and leaving teh key in the ignition, i get four beeps from the instrument panel, is this an error code of some sort ?

 

The oil light comes on but goes out after a few moments, so i dont think its a fuel delivery issue. Ill post back when ive refitted the battery, if its that, then i may have an alternator problem aswell !

[seatkid]

Probably Relay 30.

 

If you're handy with a soldering iron you can take the relay out and open it up. There is usually a dry joint on one of the connections. Resoldering would fix that.

 

Otherwise they are about

[Zaz]

Nah, ford want 20+ vat from the main dealer and i cant find an alternative anywhere yet

[Amarok]

you still have two funder mental unanswered issues here

 

1. You cant confirm the fuel pump is running (relay 30) try disconnecting the fuel filter outlet and with a handy rag get a helper to switch on the ignition, no fuel flow Relay problem

 

2. Spark plug socket (absolutely essential piece of kit) you need to see if the plugs are wet, or damaged or gap closed etc

 

the engine fitted to your vehicle is one of the easier galaxy engines to work on [trust me I have a V6 and that is a nightmare!!]

 

your approach needs to be check and check again DON'T assume anything

[toby1966]

My car is doing exactly the same thing and i have not found the answer have changed the relay done all the checks,including fuel filter except the plugs.

My car just seemed to die having sprayed the cleaner in the housing,i don't know if i overdid this and it has now clogged it up.

Is there a way to clean with some sort of solvent or just neat petrol.if the fuel pump is blocked how can i fix that,you see i to have the car just turning over and when i do this a few times the relay is physically warm to the touch does this mean the pump is working?

any help would be great.

many thanks. ;)

 

 

 

 

 

 

you still have two funder mental unanswered issues here

 

1. You cant confirm the fuel pump is running (relay 30) try disconnecting the fuel filter outlet and with a handy rag get a helper to switch on the ignition, no fuel flow Relay problem

 

2. Spark plug socket (absolutely essential piece of kit) you need to see if the plugs are wet, or damaged or gap closed etc

 

the engine fitted to your vehicle is one of the easier galaxy engines to work on [trust me I have a V6 and that is a nightmare!!]

 

your approach needs to be check and check again DON'T assume anything

[Zaz]

I dont really want to be disconnecting any fuel lines without depressurising the system first, i would have to let the residual pressure bleed out first before i could see if it was the pump generating flow or not and i dont want to introduce any airlocks in the system, so my first port of call will be to renew the plugs as i do anyway every time i buy a new vehicle, as a matter of course, i just need to get teh right socket to remove them ;)

 

Battery charging is taking an age, far longer than normal so while there seems to be enough juice usually to turn the engine, it may not also be enough to fire it so ill let it charge overnight, if its not on maintenance charge by morning then the battery needs changing anyway.

[Amarok]

My car is doing exactly the same thing and i have not found the answer have changed the relay done all the checks,including fuel filter except the plugs.

My car just seemed to die having sprayed the cleaner in the housing,i don't know if i overdid this and it has now clogged it up.

Is there a way to clean with some sort of solvent or just neat petrol.if the fuel pump is blocked how can i fix that,you see i to have the car just turning over and when i do this a few times the relay is physically warm to the touch does this mean the pump is working?

any help would be great.

many thanks. ;)

hold your horses friend

is yours a 2.0 engine or a 2.3 or a 2.8 as they are all very different?

 

also I can't quite get my head around the situation where people own a petrol engine and don't have a spark plug socket :(

in the good old days when your motor didn't start it was simple you would take the spark plug out and take a look if it was wet you had fuel and if you plugged in the lead and rested it on the casing and turned the engine over you could see if you had a spark both are absolutely essential if you want to start a petrol engine

 

as per my previous post you need a spark and you need fuel to run a petrol engine one or both of these is missing from your car thats why it aint running

 

so buy, beg, steal or borrow a plug socket get the plugs out and start looking !

 

 

 

 

 

you still have two funder mental unanswered issues here

 

1. You cant confirm the fuel pump is running (relay 30) try disconnecting the fuel filter outlet and with a handy rag get a helper to switch on the ignition, no fuel flow Relay problem

 

2. Spark plug socket (absolutely essential piece of kit) you need to see if the plugs are wet, or damaged or gap closed etc

 

the engine fitted to your vehicle is one of the easier galaxy engines to work on [trust me I have a V6 and that is a nightmare!!]

 

your approach needs to be check and check again DON'T assume anything

[seatkid]

Battery charging is taking an age, far longer than normal so while there seems to be enough juice usually to turn the engine, it may not also be enough to fire it so ill let it charge overnight, if its not on maintenance charge by morning then the battery needs changing anyway.

 

Before you proceed any further - if you have a duff battery or a problem with charging/power (e.g. overheating/melting engine bay power fusebox) - this needs to be sorted first as this might be the reason behind your starting/cutting out problems.

[Amarok]

I dont really want to be disconnecting any fuel lines without depressurising the system first, i would have to let the residual pressure bleed out first before i could see if it was the pump generating flow or not and i dont want to introduce any airlocks in the system, so my first port of call will be to renew the plugs as i do anyway every time i buy a new vehicle, as a matter of course, i just need to get teh right socket to remove them ;)

 

Battery charging is taking an age, far longer than normal so while there seems to be enough juice usually to turn the engine, it may not also be enough to fire it so ill let it charge overnight, if its not on maintenance charge by morning then the battery needs changing anyway.

Its not a high pressure system mate, simple electric pump in the tank through a filter to the injection gallery while the pump runs there is pressure when off pressure off...

 

the fuel filter as it is under the floor and gets missed, by your reply I suspect you haven't changed it or you would have noticed the lack of pressure?? also there is a return to the tank so you can't airlock the system (I have run mine dry at least 20 times now !!) you will kick yourself if its a £7 filter that is blocked !!!!!!

 

the battery I think is a side issue due to the constant cranking trying to start the engine even a new battery has a cut off point and needs a good 24 hours charge.

Edited October 26, 2011 by Amarok

[seatkid]

My car is doing exactly the same thing and i have not found the answer have changed the relay done all the checks,including fuel filter except the plugs.

My car just seemed to die having sprayed the cleaner in the housing,i don't know if i overdid this and it has now clogged it up.

Is there a way to clean with some sort of solvent or just neat petrol.if the fuel pump is blocked how can i fix that,you see i to have the car just turning over and when i do this a few times the relay is physically warm to the touch does this mean the pump is working?

any help would be great.

many thanks. ;)

 

If you cant start your car - which is what I think yours saying, then go through the standard procedure for a petrol engined car.

 

1. Lift off a lead and check you have a spark when turning over.If not then check ignition leads/coilpak. Check all leads as there is more than one coilpak.

 

2. Remove spark plug(s) and check condition. Turning the car over (very briefly) without plugs fitted will dry out any over zealous squirting of cleaner or petrol flooding. (Take care where those spark leads are as they could ignite the stuff coming out the plug holes)

 

3. Next step is to establish if fuel is getting through - but I doubt you need to get to this stage. 90% of petrol non starting is ignition related.

 

Please try not to hijack another persons thread - you have started several threads already on the same subject. Just stick to one thread and keep it going instead of starting a new one or diving into someone elses.

Edited October 26, 2011 by seatkid

[Zaz]

Not sure why Toby is being critical that i dont have the correct socket ? I have about 300 sockets lying about, i just dont have the one that fits, so ive bought one to add to the collection.

 

The battery didnt take a charge, i left it going for 20 hours and nothing, it barely cranked the engine so ive ordered a new one plus plugs.

 

I cant get to the fuel filter, its under the car, i can get the fuel pump though as thats through the boot area. The fuel filter was changed 15k miles ago.

 

Once the bits arrive, i will have a go and post back, thanks for the ongoing assistance ;)

[toby1966]

check the post it is not me being critical.

I just think that as we both are just being thorough we need a bit more help good luck withyour car. ;)

 

 

Not sure why Toby is being critical that i dont have the correct socket ? I have about 300 sockets lying about, i just dont have the one that fits, so ive bought one to add to the collection.

 

The battery didnt take a charge, i left it going for 20 hours and nothing, it barely cranked the engine so ive ordered a new one plus plugs.

 

I cant get to the fuel filter, its under the car, i can get the fuel pump though as thats through the boot area. The fuel filter was changed 15k miles ago.

 

Once the bits arrive, i will have a go and post back, thanks for the ongoing assistance :(

[toby1966]

I thought we were here to help each other??

I think you might be deluding yourself after all we are talking about is cars its not the U.N.

 

I am grateful for the help as are everyone else and we all benefit dont we?? ;)

 

 

My car is doing exactly the same thing and i have not found the answer have changed the relay done all the checks,including fuel filter except the plugs.

My car just seemed to die having sprayed the cleaner in the housing,i don't know if i overdid this and it has now clogged it up.

Is there a way to clean with some sort of solvent or just neat petrol.if the fuel pump is blocked how can i fix that,you see i to have the car just turning over and when i do this a few times the relay is physically warm to the touch does this mean the pump is working?

any help would be great.

many thanks. :(

 

If you cant start your car - which is what I think yours saying, then go through the standard procedure for a petrol engined car.

 

1. Lift off a lead and check you have a spark when turning over.If not then check ignition leads/coilpak. Check all leads as there is more than one coilpak.

 

2. Remove spark plug(s) and check condition. Turning the car over (very briefly) without plugs fitted will dry out any over zealous squirting of cleaner or petrol flooding. (Take care where those spark leads are as they could ignite the stuff coming out the plug holes)

 

3. Next step is to establish if fuel is getting through - but I doubt you need to get to this stage. 90% of petrol non starting is ignition related.

 

Please try not to hijack another persons thread - you have started several threads already on the same subject. Just stick to one thread and keep it going instead of starting a new one or diving into someone elses.

[seatkid]

Toby, please dont get offended, we are all here to offer help, but you must understand how our forums work.

 

If you have a problem, you start a thread and keep it going until you get sorted (or give up) and hopefully pass information as to what you did and how the problem was solved or not.

 

What is unhelpful, is to keep starting new threads on the same issue, and to ignore someones suggestions and leave several threads on the same subject with no closure. Diving into someone elses thread by talking about your problem and asking for help there is just plain confusing for anyone trying to make use of the information, let alone any member trying to help.

 

Have you ever tried to hold two conversations simultaneously or observed someone trying to do so?

 

Even your habit of quoting previos posts doesnt follow convention. Its normal to quote only the relevant parts and before giving an answer - not after. The "reply" button is even designed to work that way!

Edited October 27, 2011 by seatkid

[Zaz]

Thanks dude, 2/3 pages of hijacking i can deal with, lots of usefull info in this thread to sift and work through as time allows, i will keep this updated as i get along ;)